Broken_Mirror33

Forgiving Someone Without A Soul

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Forgiving Someone Without A Soul

Teal's latest episode on Forgiveness brings up an interesting point at the end. She tells the story of how she was able to identify with her abuser by taking in his pain and suffering as her own and, therefore, understand the situation from his perspective. This, in turn, became Teal's motivation to let go of the pain and resentment she'd been holding onto all those years, which allowed her to step into a space of forgiveness. But what if the person who has wronged us does not suffer? What if we can't identify with the other person (in this case, an abuser), because they don't feel pity or remorse for those they've wronged? How do you forgive someone without a Soul?

Edited by Broken_Mirror33
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It is extremely difficult to do what Teal has done but she is right. It is called 'seeing things from a helicopter view' in psychology I think. Everyone has a soul Broken, at least that is my believe but I believe also that their soul is missing something. It is missing empathy or some form of awareness.I have not met many people that are aware all the time about their behaviour and what they do. ach of us is what I call our own bubble. It is in our nature to want others that have wronged or harm us to suffer.It is much easier to be angry or to hate or want others to suffer then it is to love. I read somewhere that spirit is the core of individualized consciousness, that permanent aspect of one’s being representing the true Self.

 

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In Buddhism, one is supposed to develop a sense of compassion for all sentient beings. But I find something wrong with this statement in regards to the question posed above, and somewhat disturbing. What if the person we're dealing with isn't sentient in the same way that we are sentient?

After all, we identify compassion with basic humanness. But in a situation where the other person lacks this fundamental quality, what does it even mean to have compassion?

The key word, here, is sentient. Can a robot have sentience? I would say, yes, a robot can have sentience at the basic understanding of the word. But I also think that a robot cannot be sentient in the same way a human being is sentient (well, at least some of us). That is, a robot could be said to perceive and feel, but a robot's ability to perceive and feel is quite limited. A robot is incapable of feeling the same range of human emotion we are capable of. Therefore, I do not think the above statement applies to robots. But what about having a sense of compassion for human beings that lack these fundamental qualities?

Much like the robot, these people lack a level of sentience we equate with being fully human. Their ability to perceive and feel is severely limited relative to our own, such as in the case of a psychopath or a sociopath. I believe these types of people were the motivation for the idea of a replicant in Philip K. Dick's novel 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?' and the subsequent movie 'Blade Runner.' The definition of a replicant is an exact replica of an artificially created human being. The only way to tell a replicant apart from a human is to administer a test that elicits emotions in the test subject that replicants supposedly can’t have. That is, replicants only display a limited range of human emotion and, therefore, aren't fully human. Therefore, I do not think the statement of Buddhist compassion extends to those particular human beings who are incapable of displaying full sentience. As it relates to forgiveness, since there is a lack of sentience there is also nothing to forgive. In the context of a soulless individual forgiveness is not only meaningless it is irrelevant.

Edited by Broken_Mirror33
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From what I know about Buddhism is that it is about forgiveness and that you should always forgive. Like Teal said in her video: Forgiveness takes time.  So what do you do with people who lack the level of sentience like you described? I think that is individual based on that person and based on your own views. If you do not take anything personal, you could say that there is also nothing to forgive.

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Forgiveness helps release us from the bondage of our wound. The person that wounded us is the vehicle that makes it possible.

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We forgive what has been done to us so that we can let it go. It doesn't matter whether the abuser know or cares. We are not forgiving the person only God or source can do that, we are letting go of the anger pain and consequences of the act in order to be free to chart a healthier course for our lives. Abuse is a crime of power, the abuser seeks to take away our power because we threaten or trigger them in some way. We forgive the act so we can take our power back and grow in love, peace and compassion for all beings including those who have lost their souls.

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Well, I agree the damned can only be forgiven by God and that it's meaningless for us to grant them such clemency. I think granting undeserved clemency is spiritual bypassing, which is why I find it so difficult to see Teal's perspective on the matter. Teal asserted that it was necessary for her to identify with her abuser's perspective before she could move into a space of forgiveness. My post is a counterexample to this assertion--the case in which identifying with the abuser is an impossibility. In this case, the abuser is inconsequential and not a necessary component to the healing process, at least in my view. I think Teal's example is so extreme I wonder if it's not a better example of Stockholm Syndrome than forgiveness?

This also contradicts her assertion that "forgiveness" is a result of the healing process. If that were true, having compassion or showing mercy towards one's abuser (or captor) is a necessary step in the healing process. And I think we all agree that's not necessarily the case.

As far as developing compassion or mercy for the damned is concerned, I still see this as going a bit too far. In Buddhism that's where the notion of reincarnation comes into play. Reincarnation awaits those who fail to achieve enlightenment or salvation in this lifetime--it's the consolation prize for having bad karma. In Christianity it's hell that awaits those who cannot be saved. Of course, I have Gnostic tendencies so I don't believe in the traditional view of hell. This view is also supported by the Buddhist Sadhana--now is a time of hell on earth (the Kali Yuga). Especially seeing how the New Age perspective jives well with this unorthodox view of hell and leaves room for reincarnation, I don't see this as a problem. I can see how the damned deserve our pity if you believe in the orthodox view of hell, however. But as far as New Age is concerned, until we are free from the prison of this earthly embodiment: poor us!

Edited by Broken_Mirror33
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On second thought, this may be why Teal said in the opening of her video that she was overqualified to teach forgiveness because her experience simply was too extreme. It would seem she went a step too far by identifying with her captor, but it's also no longer forgiveness at that point it's Stockholm Syndrome! (Her experience was on the level of being in a hostage situation!) But that also means she had no choice but to identify with this monster in order to cope with the situation. She's right, from this perspective the idea of spiritual "forgiveness" sounds like complete and total b.s.!!

Edited by Broken_Mirror33
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I quite like the saying "hurt people hurt people", meaning that an abuser must be abused themselves to develop that need/tendency. When the person doesn't show sign of remorse, it may be because they are justifying their actions, and completely seperated from the part of themselves that was hurt as well.

All people have souls, but it's very likely that your abuser has internal seperation to an extend where there is no empathy or ability to relate to others in their concious minds.

I have personally forgiven my abuser, because I saw the hurt that was driving his intense desire and need to seek innocence outside himself. It doesn't mean that he was right to abuse me. The action was hurtful. But I seeked out the child aspect of him that was abused in a similar way and found that I could relate to that aspect and forgive him for what he had done.

Remember that you don't have to forgive. You can be angry, you can hate this person, and it's valid for you to stay in that state for the rest of your life if you need or want that.

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Someone angry enough at life to abuse others would appear to have serious problems. Since we are Love, how far away from his true self can he be. Anger, confusion, "everyone in the world hates me" so I am going to beat them all first...  Can he possibly know self love? If not then he doesn't know love at all. I wonder how many lives of hell he might  have to live to figure it out? Would you like to be the person on his path? No? Than you are more fortunate than he.

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Some say that soul is perfect and that we all belong to one source and return to the light. And that it is the body that is prone to sin and needs to be cleansed from the  evil doings that accumulate in the body throughout life, same way someone would put trash in a bin. If we look at it from this side, it makes more sense why forgiving is so difficult. A lot of it  has to do with the person doing the work or the cleanse of his own body.

I don't know exactly where the belief about souls re-living the cycles they haven't learned comes from and how it can be traced but it seem to be the main reason for many people to make sure they do everything they can to purify their body and soul prior death AKA "crush course studying before death" to keep it light and help the soul fly)

 

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Something that helps me forgive is to see the situation, the relationship, and everything that influenced their current personality growing up as a purposeful story. Like a play. I try to see it as something constructed to teach me the lessons I need and wanted to learn as well as the lessons  their soul wants to learn. I also look at it from the universal perspective of what this interaction has to offer Humanity. I play devilvs advocate as well as go into their being (Teal has a term for this). Its like how a child can't see why their parents have rules. They think they are just mean but really the child is  just lacking greater understanding. One perspective is a little like if two children want to play superheroes. One of them would have to be the villain and one of them would get to be the hero. Then they play their game and when it's over they do something else. And maybe next time they switch roles. Our souls do the same thing.

 It definitely takes a long time to forgive someone when you can't see them being affected by their actions. Most of all we just want Justice or resolve. And when they don't have the capacity to recognize things it feels unfinished.

And then there's the law of attraction. Why is this person even in my life? Usually it has to do with your own sense of self and boundaries. Once you learn the lesson your soul wanted you to learn forgiveness comes natural. Its not something you have to do or can't do. It's just an instant sense of compassion to where you can no longer hold resentment.

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It is always easier to forgive from a distance from the person who wronged you.  When you are away and safe is the time to work on forgiveness.  Teal didn't forgive her captor until she was free from him and then had the power of choice.  Forgiveness cannot be forced it must be chosen.

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