wildwestrom

The Red Pill - Sound sexual strategy or false premises?

7 posts in this topic

Hello everyone.

I'm a little nervous writing about this but here it goes. I'm sure some of you have heard of The Red Pill reddit page. Maybe some of you are a part of it. I have no doubt in my mind that this community was born from the pain and suffering of men. When you are told that you can be loved for who you are and your girlfriend leaves you for or cheats on you with a more attractive man or high-status man, there must be something missing. Many men who come to the red pill find that they've been lied to, brainwashed, deceived by society, and the red pill has a solution.

I want to discuss this because the red pill community, for a very long time, has given me a sense of power and the truth that would set me free. I have since put it to the side after having a spiritual awakening and discovering more about the nature of the universe. As I understand the law of attraction, what you believe in has a huge effect on what you see in the outside world. Your emotions show how far away you are from who and what you truly are.

I definitely do feel a pain in my chest reading the red pill, so clearly there are some things that are out of alignment. I have not however found any effective sexual strategy other than the red pill. There are no spiritual teachers who teach how to find sexual partners, they believe relationships based exclusively on sex are somehow wrong or out of alignment. What if a man just wants to have sex and has no desire for anything other than that. What if a man doesn't want to be a provider or be in a long term relationship. I've been asking the universe to show me what it feels like to be objectified, to only be wanted for sexual gratification, and I have not felt it. I have felt however what it's like to be a "success object," the idea that it's a man's obligation to provide value and pursue material and societal success.

Now as for discussion, I can do one of two things. I can talk about my own personal pain and ask everyone's help to resolve it or I can talk about the red pill community and the problems it is trying to solve and attempt to come up with a large scale solution. It's up to you now.

Edited by wildwestrom
removed the poll

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I honestly don't understand what's your problem is. If you just care to have sex, then there are tons of people who are out for the same.

Now if you are here because of the concern that you are being looked down upon for your life choices,  I'd say deal with it because that's ultimately the life path you have chosen. Do not pretend that what you do has no consequences. You are a clear example of it.

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Possible inference #1:  a person is afraid of being looked down upon and comes here to get validation to feel better about his or her feelings

Possible inference #2: a person is uncomfortable with his or her own feelings and looks down upon himself or herself but projects the looking down upon others. This person comes here looking for gentle support and encouragement to make the changes to become the better person that they would like to be.

 

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So in a short amount of time I answered my own question(s). The fundamental belief that was causing me pain was that women love opportunistically. I hate this idea, but I was afraid it might be one of those "cruel truths," which I know deep down of course they don't exist. Now I realize that even if it's true that women only love opportunistically, then that means there's an aspect of myself that only loves opportunistically. I solved this one too, it had it's roots the first time I admitted to a girl that I didn't like her at all and only kept her around because I got to "fool around" with her whenever I was with her (this was also a very long time ago, I was 11 I believe, she was around the same age). I was under the belief that certain kinds of love were fundamentally conditional and I sought out to change the conditions (my attractiveness, my game, etc.) in order to be loved. The real problem hid itself as guilt even though at the time I thought I didn't understand what I had done wrong. Now I see it for what it is. I don't have any contact to this girl anymore, but I most earnestly practiced Ho'oponopono as I now understand what I had done wrong and I can only hope she'll forgive me. I was dishonest almost the whole time I had known her. Realizing this makes me feel much lighter inside. Now I'm going to see how much more differently I react in the same situations.

Now going further, I think there is opportunity to give perspective to other redpillers. To help them find the cause of their pain and fears and give them a process to release it. Perhaps a video, an article, or something.

Edited by wildwestrom
added a sentence

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On 4/16/2018 at 10:20 PM, Scot said:

Possible inference #1:  a person is afraid of being looked down upon and comes here to get validation to feel better about his or her feelings

Possible inference #2: a person is uncomfortable with his or her own feelings and looks down upon himself or herself but projects the looking down upon others. This person comes here looking for gentle support and encouragement to make the changes to become the better person that they would like to be.

 

Your first inference is incorrect, I already validated my feelings and I don't care that much if I'm looked down upon (at least I think I don't care). Your second inference contains two inferences in one. Yes, my feelings were very uncomfortable coming here, but I was not looking down on others. Redpillers tend to think others are delusional for believing in things like unconditional love (hence the red pill) but I also know there might've been something deeply flawed with my thinking, no matter how much of their philosophy is based on evolutionary biology and observed behavior. Yes I was coming for gentle support, but I knew very well that it might not help at all. I just wanted straight answers, no need for that now though. Is there a [SOLVED] tag on this forum, like on stackexchange?

Edited by wildwestrom

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The way I see "Red-Pilling" is like this...

You can be red-pilled into something you'd prefer to believe, or you can be red-pilled into reality. 

The reality is... You are a reproductive being. Your parents had sex, conceived you, and gave you a good enough life to survive to this point. Now you should do the same thing they did but better. Why? Because you can give an opportunity for another life to live by being a provider. What better gift could you give?  

Ask yourself seriously... Should it all end with you? Are you the LAST person in your family lineage of thousands of years of reproducing, providing and protecting... youre gonna be the first one to say "naah I don't want commitment" and your kids are never born? Think about your best friend. They wouldnt exist if their dad said "naah Id rather just bang and leave this woman". Think how selfish and evil that actually is. So egotistical. Not everything is about ME and what I want right now. It's not about sensitive little emotions either. Think about the future. Think about the women and kids, man. Or, not! It's up to you what you do, but don't deny that you are denying the best parts of life by pushing away masculinity. It's what you are as a man... a provider, helper, giver, etc. If you don't want to be a giver, I wish you good luck.

 

 

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It's a very interesting community. A very divisive one, too, but I guess that's usually a cornerstone of 'interesting', heh.

I agree completely; the group seems to have come about as a reaction to suffering. At its core, it seems like a movement of rejection as a means of self-protection. One of the more innocuous incarnations of that impulse. I've not yet met a self-identifying redpiller who wanted anything more than a sense of control and emotional safety/predictability, which is exactly what the movement's there to provide. Take control by disengaging from the problem. It's a simple, straightforward solution. Way better than many. My stance is: Whatever works for the person the matter concerns. There's offshoots and fragments of the movement who have different ideas, but the core concept seems to be around that, would I be correct?

I agree that not many spiritual teachers really get into the non-emotional side of sexuality. There's a lot of very repressive ideas around that even in the spiritual community. That makes perfect sense though, for two big reasons I can think of; a significant fraction of people in the spiritual community are abuse victims, and secondly that any philosophy that teaches unrestrained self-expression will always eventually find itself at a point where it's found itself unintentionally encouraging damaging behaviours. You can't give permission to everyone on Earth 'do what you think is right' and expect everone to be responsible. Shit, even a TV show making a few jokes about szechuan sauce tasting great managed to get taken too far. Sexuality is a minefield, society's tools for handling it up until recently have always relied on suppression, but now that the sexual liberation movement is entering its... what, third, fourth generation? and has successfully outlined many of the positives of sex, it's finding itself starting to have to deal with what I guess Teal Swan peeps would call the shadow aspects of sexuality too. There's a huge potential niche there for people to try and tackle; reconciling the shadow of sex with the light of sex. I think that's a very important foundation to try and rebuild, and the lack of it is what spawns so much of the sex/relationship-related topics in social media, Red Pill included.

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What if a man just wants to have sex and has no desire for anything other than that. What if a man doesn't want to be a provider or be in a long term relationship. I've been asking the universe to show me what it feels like to be objectified, to only be wanted for sexual gratification, and I have not felt it. I have felt however what it's like to be a "success object," the idea that it's a man's obligation to provide value and pursue material and societal success.

I don't have an answer for that, but it's cool to see the question even being asked. It's a theme I've seen a lot, and I think the lack of an answer is what fuels so much sexual... disagreement, in discussions around the topic. 'why would anyone want to be ojectified' versus 'why wouldn't anyone want to be objectified', amongst a lot of other threads of logic. I think it's one of those issues where it's very, very difficult to experience both sides, to have experienced the positives and negatives of each. I think clearly, from society and social discourse, being an object of desire isn't all it's cracked up to be, and simultaneously, being undesired is pretty intolerable too. Sadly, the vast, vast majority of us are in a position where we cannot choose which one we are, and so, by lack of personal experience, when we find ourselves not enjoying things as they are, we tend more to always imagine that the grass is greener on the other side.

Having said that, I also want to add that the same dynamic also exists parallel with social desirability and attractiveness. You've experienced being a "success object", and so are familiar with the pros and cons of that form of attractiveness, but not on the physical dimension. Same general principal, I think. You got one, but it wasn't that great. So you want the other, hoping that that other one would be more fulfilling. Maybe with both, it could be. Conversely, maybe with both, there would be nothing. The spiritual concept of seperation comes into effect, there. Only someone who genuinely experienced both could start to guess.

You could, probably, boil it down to control, or a lack thereof. Which is again, why the Redpill Response is so simple and straightforward in solving the presented problem. Because it reintroduces a sense of control. Control by disengagement, but control nonetheless.

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I hate this idea, but I was afraid it might be one of those "cruel truths," which I know deep down of course they don't exist. Now I realize that even if it's true that women only love opportunistically, then that means there's an aspect of myself that only loves opportunistically. I solved this one too, it had it's roots the first time I admitted to a girl that I didn't like her at all and only kept her around because I got to "fool around" with her whenever I was with her (this was also a very long time ago, I was 11 I believe, she was around the same age). I was under the belief that certain kinds of love were fundamentally conditional and I sought out to change the conditions (my attractiveness, my game, etc.) in order to be loved. The real problem hid itself as guilt even though at the time I thought I didn't understand what I had done wrong.

I think you're onto something there. I have a story that's almost the inverse: when I was around 6-7 or something like that, I spent time with a girl who was 11-12 or so. She fooled around a bunch with me (and I, to a lesser extent, her), and at the end of it all she made it quite clear she didn't like me, or care about me (she beat me up a little at one point, I think I'd dobbed on her faking a sickie or something, got her in trouble. Turned out years later she had a serious personality disorder blended with bog-standard spoiled rich only child syndrome. So ner ner ner on her, that'll teach her for kicking me with those stupid expensive 90ies platform schoolshoes :p). She'd been interested purely for her own experimentation. Judging in retrospect, she'd just never had a boy of any age spend any time in her bedroom before then. So, when the opportunity arose, she took it without even thinking. Even at that age though, I figured she was very mean and selfish person in general, but I got where the sex stuff was coming from, I was totally on-board for that part. The rest of it, not so much, but realistically, shit happens, the rest of it was her own emotional maturity issues that (to my knowledge) she has still not yet really dealt with. Which is sad for her. I had a few more (much more mutual and positive, and less socially stigmatising in age gap) experiences with both males and females in years after that. But that first time was very... impactful... to my understanding of how people treat each other, and why.*

(heheh, get it? Impactful? 'cause she kicked me and I cried? God I love puns. :p)

Biggest lesson taken from it is that ultimately, people will aim to fulfill their own desires and wishes. Sex and relationships included, but with everything else too. If that's making someone else happy, all the better for everyone, but that's still coming from a place of self-interest at it's core, it's still fulfilling a want. Men do it, Women do it. Anyone who says there's a fundamental difference between the sexes in that regard is probably speaking more from their own ideals than reality. The belief that it's only 'the other side' who is seeking self-serving things is the biggest problem in sex/gender/relationship discourse atm. Ignorance and selfishness about how to go about trying to get what you want leads to conflict, hurt and incompatible wants/expectations (being a kid is a big cause of the ignorance and selfishness in that example, but ultimately adults can be just as bad, since realistically hey, they're just kids who've been around longer). Interpersonal interactions are things where there are usually multiple, at times contradictory threads of overlapping want/aims/priority working in parallel with each other, trying to interface with someone else's wants/aims/priorities. Complex situations. People are very complex and contradictory. The more intimate you get, the more complex it becomes. Which is part of why so many people try to avoid intimacy; it's complex, the rules are generally undefined and it's all very uncontrollable and unpredictable.

I read that article, I think I understood. To it, and you, I have to respond: Everyone's interactions are conditional. Being born is conditional, remaining alive is conditional. Everyone's everything is conditional, and thus everyone's everything must be a compromise on one level or another. Everyone who can make an agreement on and accept another's conditions gets closer to what they want, whatever that may be, sex, emotional acceptance and validation, even just particular foods on the drive home together, whatever. Practical example: My wife and I have very different expectations and want a lot of different things, and our continued relationship is conditional... pretty much the condition is 'so long as you continue to care, I will too.' That's the condition. Even as soulmates who hate to be apart at all, there are conditions and differences. Something being conditional doesn't diminish it. Someone wanting something different to you doesn't mean it's not worth working with them (and vice versa; nobody is forced to work with anyone they don't want to). Though, wanting something to be unconditional isn't invalid either, it's just... you gotta be pragmatic first. Unconditional anything is... not something I've ever seen. Physical reality itself is built on conditions, and thus so are we.

(there we go btw, I hit the point of semantic satiation. Conditions. Conditionality. Doesn't mean anything anymore! heheh)

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Now going further, I think there is opportunity to give perspective to other redpillers. To help them find the cause of their pain and fears and give them a process to release it. Perhaps a video, an article, or something.

Completely agree. You don't choose to cut out a whole part of the world without having a pain that could better be addressed, if it were given the chance. Relationships are fun. Sex is fun. Both can be bad too, but you can't get the good without risking the bad. Some people make that choice to cut off that part of their life because they genuinely want to, others make it not because they really want to, but because they feel it's the only option. Maybe the only one that lets them feel safe and in control again. The latter group are the ones who can always do with help and other perspectives.

 

*I am fully aware this is not considered a normative experience.

Edited by Done Now

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