mcprince23

CoDependancy- Needs

16 posts in this topic

CoDependancy- Needs

Good Afternoon,

I have in the past few years realized I am Codependent. My ex is of course the narcissistic antisocial. It has been a year since I have moved 2 hours from him and yet I still remain affected by some of his mental and manipulative tactics. It hurts me to know how bad he allows himself to be this person, and how bad I have codependency and can't let him go 100%.  I have watched several of Teals' videos, pertaining to codependency and love, and angels and demons. From my understanding we have to meet our needs to heal. Another understanding is to help someone heal is to help feed their need. I would love to try this with my ex. However, he doesn't understand what his true needs are and will not do any research to figure it out. So he thrives off the superficial needs. Drugs, lust, selfishness, lies, anger. He still presently uses these with me in current disputes. He has taken an issue currently and has used something else to blame his wrong doing on as a scapegoat. These things have negatively affected me financially.  How am I supposed to feed his needs while he is currently attempting to ruin me? Does this make sense?

 

My second struggle I am having. Is he is the antisocial that the worst. But yet I can't get over his positives. I imagine and daydream all the time of for example, us dancing together and going to places and him being the jokester that he is. This has never happened. His immaturity has definitely cause some damage to our relationship but there is part of it that I love as well. The part of course that's harmless. But there is no one else like him. I try to dream of myself with others, and if they don't have his positive aspects, that dream is over. I don't want them. He is unique. I want to move past this and I don't understand why It's this difficult. He has done more damage than good. Ever. Physically, emotionally and spiritually.

 

Any suggestions?

Plan of action?

Syllabus?

 

 

Michelle

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hello Michelle @mcprince23  it sounds like you've been through a lot.  

It seems to me that, like many people moving away from a narcissist-codependent dynamic (myself included), it might assist you to: 1. focus on listening to your inner voice (intuition); 2. improving self-trust, and 3. prioritize meeting your needs (especially regarding relationships with others).  

Doing these processes , I've noticed,  ultimately involves creating a delicate balance between focusing on oneself as a validly independent person (capable 'to create', as an individual) & the aspect of oneself that is validly dependent on others (has the need of connection and assistance from others). Nurturing both aspects allows you to increase your connection to your higher self ,while also building new connections to other people. The both are important, since it sounds like you desire both freedom from this person, while simultaneously crave connection to this person; these mixed desires perhaps are keeping you stuck.

Lastly, in addition to the suggestions above (all of which teal has videos about) one final thing I myself am doing to work through a similar situation is to integrate the shadow within myself - of the qualities of a narcissist, so as to no longer be a match to them by virtue of them mirroring that suppressed aspect. 

Hope this helps, and remember that if you feel conflicted relative to various outside suggestions, ultimately your own inner voice is worth much more than what others have to say about your situation :)  

Andrea

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On 5/11/2017 at 10:02 PM, walt said:

The only people it is ok to nurture and enable are our children. 

I honestly believe you have confused the way psychologists use the word "enable" with the standard meaning of "enable".  As far as I know, "enabling" when used by psychologists means supporting someone's self-destructive, or anti-social behavior.   

Supporting and encouraging good behavior is not "enabling".

Www.mentalhealthamerica.net:  "codependency is an emotional and behavioral condition that affects an individual's ability to have a healthy, mutually satisfying relationship. People with codependency often form or maintain relationships that are one-sided, emotionally destructive and/or abusive."  

 Please answer this because I think it is the real source of our disagreement

Edited by Scot

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Another evasive answer that seems to be a deliberate misinterpretation of what I wrote. I am sure that it would have triggered me before but in a way I don't care anymore.   

But let me tell you what I think has happened.  I started to really look inside myself for why I am triggered by that sort of thing.  Without making this story too long I figured out a thing in my shadow that made me want to stick it to you when you had "wronged" me.  And I wouldn't stop until I "won".  (I suspect that you will tell me that I didn't win.  Don't bother.  You are right)

But I see the same thing in you Walt.  You have a desire to stick it to those who have "wronged" you and you won't stop until you have "won"

So this pot is calling the kettle black.  But I (as the pot) think I have realized my own blackness in this  situation.  Does the kettle see it?

Now believe it or not, I'm actually trying to encourage good behavior in both of us. (Of course I realize that I am putting forth *my* idea(s) of good behavior.).

Walt: what do you consider to be good behavior?

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What do you think expresses the "correct" approach to life?

1- have faith in God, faith in yourself and faith in others.  Have trust both in yourself and in others. Care for yourself and each other.  Live in the light but be aware of the dark.

or

2- have faith in God, faith in yourself but don't bother with faith in others.  Keep your heart protected from others.   You can trust yourself and God but not anyone else.  Shake yourself and others out of their weak "loving" status quo.

I agree that we need to know where we end and others begin.  But essentially everything you write in your posts makes it seem like you would go for "2".   

Edited by Scot

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2 hours ago, walt said:

The correct path in life is not forcing it [the correct path] upon yourself or others.

Taken literally, that means "do whatever you want, whenever you want".  

How does "shaking others out of their comfort zone" compare to "forcing the correct path on others"?  

Shaking seems to be forcing others out of their general principles without forcing new principles.   That is, shaking doesn't offer an alternative, it merely causes doubts. 

What do you think about the following ideas:

   -vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams

   -undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit

   -kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates

   -vengeance instead of turning the other cheek

   -indulgence instead of abstinence

 

Sound about right?

Edited by Scot
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11 hours ago, walt said:

There are no endings, only beginnings.

Beginnings always seem hopeful.

 But my experience in posting to you is that you seem to deliberately misinterpret what I write.  It does not make for a good beginning or a productive conversation.  In fact, it seems like you aren't really reading my posts other than to see what kind of hole you can exploit to make a deliberate misinterpretation.  So my question is: what is it in your shadow that makes you do this?  You say that you do shadow work so I would expect that you would be interested to find out.   I can't tell you why you do this.  Only you can figure that out.

However, I can give you my speculation as to why you do this.  It is just a guess but I hope you consider it.   My guess is that you never developed trust.  But you know what?  It wouldn't be your fault.   At an early age you had your trust in humanity completely violated.  So you learned that you were the only person could be trusted. And you said that God saved you, so you have faith in God.  You think that you have reached an enlightenment that the rest of us haven't. Your "truth" is that we are all separate.   And so you "shake people out of their comfort zone" to help them come to the same "enlightenment" to which you came. That we can only stand on our own two feet.  

Now I believe that we are all separate and we do need to stand in our own two feet but sometimes we need help.  We can find connection and know that we are not alone. Intimacy and connection supports our better selves.  Supporting our better selves is not "enabling".   Your "shaking of people" is closer to the real meaning of "enabling" because it brings out the worst in people.   Your "shaking" brings anger, doubt, and violates trust.

And so I say again to you, walt:

-may you be happy

-may you find in yourself trust (both for yourself and for others)

-may your heart be open and filled with loving kindness (both for yourself and for others)

That would be a hopeful beginning.

Edited by Scot

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10 hours ago, walt said:

Am I the only one that has ever triggered you in your life or is this a pattern of yours?

Very few people have triggered me the way you do Walt.  

I used to debate on Usenet.  There were a few trolls here and there.  For the most part, they really didn't trigger me.  They wouldn't engage in actual discussion.  It became a little bit of fun to see how they would evade any question.  I didn't mind those guys too much because they didn't seem to want a flame fest.   

But there was this one guy who fervently believed in his erroneous logic.  I thought if I could only explain clearly enough he would see his logic error.  He called everyone LIAR and was generally abusive.  He seemed to constantly get into flame wars with just about everyone.   This guy really did trigger me.  But I didn't want a flame fest. I wanted an actual discussion.  Someone pointed out that you can't teach the willfully ignorant.  Nonetheless, I thought we might actually end up friends (or frenemies).  

Seems to me that long term enemies are involved in a sort of codependent relationship.  Each side brings out the worst in the other.  Nobody actually enjoys the fight but there is obviously something sick inside each one because they won't just walk away.

Maybe frenemies enjoy the fight. Maybe that is a fun game where both sides are having fun.  I suppose I would characterize frenemies as "interdependent".  

Possibly, my inability to walk away might relate back to my relationship with my brother.  He always wanted to play fight.  I never enjoyed the play fights.  They always left me feeling worthless and weak. and I can could never get away because my brother would never let me get away. My brother also convinced me that telling on him would be "being a fink".  And as I look back I doubt my parents would have done anything anyway.  So I remember feeling alone and scared and no one to help me.  One day I decided enough was enough.  I fought back and I was going to end the play fighting once and for all.

There have been a few instances of me feeling like I can't get away and I feel compelled to fight back.   It all might relate back to my brother.

I would like to claim that you don't trigger me anymore.  I have come to expect you to evade what I write. 

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From PsychCentral:

"The Fine Line Between Caring and Codependency

There’s a fine line between being loving and being codependent. If we slap the codependent label on our human impulse to serve others, then we might as well dismiss all the great spiritual teachers, such as Jesus and the Buddha, as hopeless codependents! The impulse to be kind and responsive may be coming from a humanistic and spiritual place inside us."

and also

"People with narcissistic tendencies may find a self-comforting protection in the term “codependent” — interpreting their self-centered behavior as admirably non-codependent. It might activate shame to be perceived as weak, soft, or tender. They may be quick to shame others as being codependent, while seeing themselves as strong and independent. A disdain for empathy and compassion may make them counterdependent, which is the opposite extreme of codependent. Fearing attachment, intimacy, and vulnerability, they live behind a well-defended wall that ensures their isolation–oftentimes even if they seem lively or charismatic." 

see the whole article at https://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2017/04/06/are-you-codependent-or-just-caring/

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Walt, your position seems to be that any nurturing or support or kindness is "enabling" and part of codependent relationships. (Do you agree or disagree with that summarization?)

I have repeatedly gone to whatiscodependency.com and for the longest time I could not see anything that might support your position.  Finally it occurred to me something written there is so vague that you might believe that it supports you.  Here is a quote from that website.

"Codependency is sneaky and powerful. You may not be aware that it’s the root cause of problems in your relationship. Does your marriage or relationship take up your thoughts and energy? Are you unhappy but unable to leave? If you answered yes, you may be codependent. Many codependents believe their happiness depends upon another person, a relationship, or finding Mr. or Mrs. Right. That focuses your thinking and behavior around someone you can’t control. This is codependency."

I think the quote is too vague to be used to justify your position.  But if you think it does, then probably no one will ever be able to talk you out of it. But do you have anything else that supports your position?   You keep sending me on wild goose cases rather than stating your own case directly.

But you don't seem to accept anything else as an authority on the matter.  How about the following:

"Codependency does not refer to all caring behavior or feelings, but only those that are excessive to an unhealthy degree".  Moos, R.H.; Finney, J.W.; Cronkite, R.C. (1990). Alcoholism Treatment: Context, Process and Outcome.

"One person is abusive or in control or supports or enables another person's addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement.[19] Some codependents often find themselves in relationships where their primary role is that of rescuer, supporter, and confidante. These helper types are often dependent on the other person's poor functioning to satisfy their own emotional needs."

Let me state my position simply:

Helping people to get over difficult situations so they get stronger is not "codependent" is it "interdependent". "Interdependent" is not "enabling".

"Enabling" the way the word is used by psychologists really means "disabling".

Edited by Scot

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Just now, walt said:

Scot, the enabler has a hard time understanding their destructive role in relationships. Codependence is comprised of two people, one is the enabler and one is the enabled. Codependence can not exist without the enabler. 

I agree that an enabler has a very hard time understanding their destructive role in relationships. I believe that would be true. 

But it evades the questions that I asked you.   Please try to answer the questions. 

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Great!

Please, in your own words, describe "enabling".

I have already been to several websites (and quoted them).   Please explain explain your position on what it means to be "enabling".

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41 minutes ago, walt said:

Scot, why don't look at this from a different angle. 

Enabeling is a symptom of a deeper issue or core issue. These issues come from trauma, wounds, or hurt feelings. Symptoms point to wounded feelings which we need to work on to heal.

There are hundreds of symptoms and some of them are very confusing. It's not necessary to understand symptoms to successfully work on the corresponding hurt feelings.  

   

That all seems very sensible but it doesn't actually explain what enabling is and gives no insight into what codependency is.  

Edited by Scot

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8 hours ago, walt said:

I can't pinpoint your tendencies without more info.

Well Walt, I think I can pinpoint some of your tendencies:

-for example, right now you are just evading the questions.  A few posts ago you wrote "I'd love to answer any specific questions" but then you don't answer anything. 

-you don't actually read posts for any sort of insight into the way people think or any insight into yourself.  Or if you do find some insight, it is short lived because you quickly forget about it.

-I saw a post of yours in a thread about astrology. And you actually showed quite a depth of knowledge.   But you don't actually believe it, do you?  You learn about astrology just so you can gaslight people. Or is that wrong?

-you asked about "human design type" but you don't actually believe that either.   Do you?

-you claim that you believe in shadow work but you didn't recognize the "good wolf and the bad wolf" as a metaphor for the shadow.  

-If you actually do shadow work at all then I'll bet that you have looked unflinchingly at the horrible things that started to happen to you when you were three but you don't look at all at your own behavior or your anger, fear, hatred, your treatment of people on this forum.

-I think you basically hate the world.  Thanks to your "real world experience" you feel you can't trust anyone.  If someone new comes along you don't trust them (and that is appropriate).  If they seem "nice" it must be a ruse so you test them.   You poke and test, and evade, test and poke until eventually this "nice" person eventually shows their "true colors" and isn't nice anymore.  Thus you confirm your deeply seated position that everyone is an asshole.  But it's your testing, poking and evading that pisses them off.  They really are "nice" but you drive people away.

-you wrote that "God saved you" and I believe you (even though just about everything else you say is a lie or an evasion). But you don't actually attend any sort of church, mosque, temple, or synagogue do you?  Your relationship to God is personal and not through any organized religion.    However, your personal "church" has a congregation of one because although "God" puts a little bit of self-acceptance into your heart there is no love or acceptance for anyone else.  And although "God saved you", you don't actually like yourself, do you?   

And so what is the way out?   I don't know.  I think if you actually did some of the shadow work you claim to do that might help.  Of course it will probably hurt when you look at your own behavior and the way you treat people.  

 

And I think if you say the following to yourself about a thousand times, it will help too:

-May I be happy

-May I have trust both in myself and others 

-May my heart be open and filled with loving-kindness both for myself and for others. 

Edited by Scot

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