Treyoung1990

Boundary Violation during Sex

12 posts in this topic

Boundary Violation during Sex

Hi, all! This is a question related to boundary and intimacy during sex. 

Blowjobs felt empowering and enjoyable to me until I first experienced what we call "head push". I clearly remember the surprise and a sense of violation when it happened. It has been about 5 years and a couple of things still confuse me regarding this issue. First, are guys aware of/compassionate about the pain girls endure when giving "deep throat" blowjobs? If not, that should be a consequence of our inadequate sex education and education in general, right? Second, given that our sex education is a failure, how can we communicate to/educate our (male) partners about this without distancing ourselves and building walls in the relationship? 

Note: Looking back, I think my fear of being degraded during sex used to be generalized to fear of romantic relationships. As a teenager, I felt that once a woman gave in to men by being sexually involved with them, she would lose her power & dignity. All these associated memories make me feel that this problem of "head push" connects to a bigger topic about boundaries, power and intimacy in romantic relationships, and even all types of relationships. 

Thank you,

Quinn

Edited by Treyoung1990
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Treyoung1990 said:

First, are guys aware of/compassionate about the pain girls endure when giving "deep throat" blowjobs? If not, that should be a consequence of our inadequate sex education and education in general, right? Second, given that our sex education is a failure, how can we communicate to/educate our (male) partners about this without distancing ourselves and building walls in the relationship? 

1. No, I don't think they are for the most part. I think it's really important to tell your partner how much work it is, and also how much you enjoy doing it. If he still doesn't get it, tell him to shove a banana down his throat and see how he likes it then. Blowjobs can cause serious TMJ, they are real work lol!!!

2. Yes, and it's also a product of our culture where women's needs and desires are simply not catered to like men's are. Women are indoctrinated from birth to be accessible and sweet towards men and men are simply not held to the same standard of caring for and nurturing women and our needs. While not all men are like this, it is still a HUGE part of our culture, and a huge part of human shadow. 

3. Just tell him that you love giving him head and explain from your side how it feels, what feels good and what doesn't, and tell him your boundaries. Initiate open communication with him in this way. Tell him how it made you feel when he did that, and how it hurt and did not feel good and you would love it if he would ask you about it first. You are violating your own boundaries by not communicating your boundaries to him. Knowing yourself, and being open and honest with your partner about how things like that make you feel is the only way to communicate effectively without building walls. If you do that, and there are walls, it's no longer your problem, it's his. 

I would certainly go into your beliefs about sex and women and power and relationships between men and women. Here's a thought: women don't give anything away during sex. This idea comes from the days when women's worth was in the sale and commodification of their virginity - we quite literally were only worth what our husbands paid for us. This is from the beginnings of agriculture and the start of patriarchy, when men began to inherit land and the only way to make sure a man produced his own sons was if a woman was chaste and pure and faithful only to him, and women were sold to create trade agreements and arrangements etc, and this is an ancient trauma that we as women have to heal and deal with to this day.

Edited by lightworker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry you had a bad experience.

I get that some girls might enjoy it but I think head push is pretty bad. I would never do that to someone. Not a loving act at all.

I think porn is where men learn that this sort of thing is acceptable/normal. Female sexual partners of porn addicted males now have the unenviable job of educating (perhaps deprogramming) them out of the kinds of ridiculous expectations that porn creates. Personally I'd recommend every woman ask about her partner's relationship with porn before sleeping with him. This is why I'm quitting.

> I felt that once a woman gave in to men by being sexually involved with them, she would lose her power & dignity

I'd say this is relatively true but just don't go so far that you are manipulating a good male unnecessarily or withholding intimacy out of past fears that do not apply. Personally I'd recommend you don't sleep with someone who you feel would use it as an opportunity to debase you. The idea that sex itself is dirty is societally-constructed and not true.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, EarthColours said:

Female sexual partners of porn addicted males now have the unenviable job of educating (perhaps deprogramming) them out of the kinds of ridiculous expectations that porn creates.

No. We don't. That's their job. It is never anyone elses' responsibility to do something for someone. If someone is addicted to porn, it is a deeper emotional issue, not something their partner needs to fix. 

Also, porn isn't the problem. Porn is a symptom of the way society views 1. sex, 2. women, 3. men, 4. relationships 5. sexuality in general. Porn doesn't create jack shit, our conditioned beliefs, values and "morals" do. If you choose to view women in a derogatory light because you watched porn your whole life, that is your choice, porn didn't make you do it. That's like when someone blames alcohol for doing something stupid - it was still your choice to pick up the bottle and do that thing. It's not a "bad" thing to view or be addicted to porn, it's just a symptom. I really hate it when people blame porn for the world's issues with sex, because it's not porn's fault we are so fucked up, it's ours. The blame is misplaced, and that's just what it is - blame. Instead of looking inward, we place the fault onto something we deem inappropriate. The fact is that there *is* porn out there that is incredibly in alignment. It's just not free ;) 

Edited by lightworker
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/01/2017 at 6:57 PM, lightworker said:

No. We don't. That's their job. It is never anyone elses' responsibility to do something for someone. If someone is addicted to porn, it is a deeper emotional issue, not something their partner needs to fix. 

Did you seriously think I meant it is a female's responsibility to fix a broken man? I suppose I can see how some people think this but, no. That's definitely not what I mean. I don't know how anyone could even argue that. What I mean is that women are put in the situation where they are going to feel that is what they have to do if they want a normal man. I'm saying it is doing a great disservice to women.

On 10/01/2017 at 6:57 PM, lightworker said:

Also, porn isn't the problem. Porn is a symptom of the way society views 1. sex, 2. women, 3. men, 4. relationships 5. sexuality in general. Porn doesn't create jack shit, our conditioned beliefs, values and "morals" do.

I call it a pornographic society to encompass those other aspects which yes, I agree with you, are a significant part of the problem. But porn is specifically is a huge component. Way bigger than you would think. It's completely insidious as well. Here have my notes on it:

Quote

Source vid: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oFVOJf0TzY]

* All novelty seeking browsing behavior is addictive and increase dopamine
* Desensitization to dopamine decreases motivation inc. apathy
* For those who feel gulit/shame when using porn they can come to confuse anxiety for arousal over time
  + Come to require dirtier things to be satisifed, become perverted
* Decrease interest in sex and real women
* Ejaculation drains energy
* Sexual tastes can change (normalize) once porn is removed and brain has time to reset
* Longer you've been addicted longer it will take your brain to reset
* Porn addiction can have wide impacts on health because it alters the limbic system that is responsible for a very wide range of functions
* Porn is hijacking our reward circuitry getting us to do something that has no practical or reproductive benefit and distracting us from more useful activities. This is true of many other activities
* Dopamine is involved in craving, habit formulation, and memory
* Actual pleasure some from opioids
* The dopamine system is stronger than opioid system meaning: we seek more than we are satisifed
* Dopamine is supposed to propel animals into useful action
* Dopamine can override feelings of satiety: feeling able to eat again when presented with dessert menu even after big main course
* Sexual stimulation produces higher dopamine level than any other natural reward
* Porn is a supernormal stimulus along with high sugar high fat foods and computer games
* Not much difference between male jewel beetles copulating with brown beer bottles and male humans masturbating over digital screens
* Porn promotes unrealistic expectations of our own bodies and other people's that can lead to unhealthful behaviors and depression
* Also unrealistic expectations of behaviors and scenarios
* Unlike photos of naked people videos completely replace your imagination and place you in a position of a voyeur rather than a participant
  + Imagination they do have is based on fictional premise
* The comparison with nude art and porn is not as modern porn is so much more explicit, varied, dramatic, and on-demand accessible
* "Seattle libraries: no sleeping or eating allowed but watching porn OK"
* Sexual conditioning
  + Programming: "This is how it is done"
  + Programming: "This is what turns me on"
* Because we have circuits especially designed for sexuality there are no analogies for internet porn
* Dopamine results in accumulation of DeltaFosB that remains for 8 weeka after last binge
* DeltaFosB rewires the brain to want the addiction source by buildling strong nerve connection
* After DeltaFosB levels return to normal addiction pathways still remain
* Norman Doidge:
  + internet porn satisifes all the criteria for brain change (Brain That Changes Itself)
  + Internet porn can change people's sexual tastes
* Many with porn-induced fetishes or porn-induced ED need not only to stop using porn but rewire their sexual arousal to real partner
* Porn addicts tend to have lower libido, not higher, marked by difficulty becoming aroused to real people compared to porn
* You can condition your sexual arousal to porn and experience porn-induced sexual problems or fetishes yet not be addicted as addiction involves many more brain changes than just sensitization
* Addition
  + Continued use in spite of negative consequences (porn addicts often not aware until after giving it up)
  + Compulsion to use
  + Inability to control use
  + Craving: psychological or physical
  + Withdrawl symptoms not necessary for addiction
* Brain changes to addiction
  + General desensitization: numbed pleasure response, tolerance. "I can't get no satisfaction"
  + Specific sensitization: hyper-reactivity to addiction cues. Cravings. "This will make it feel alll better"
  + Hypofrontality: weakened impulse control. Inhibited frontal lobes. "Bad idea, but I can't stop you"
  + Altered stress response: minor stress triggers cravings/relapse. "I need something to take the edge off"
* Wide range of withdrawal symptoms from porn addiction
* Strongly porn-addicted individuals may experience autophagy with regard to dopamine receptivity that can lead to reduction in intelligence and concentration. The brain is downregulating sensitivity to dopamine as the neurotransmitter seems to be in excess too frequently. This deepens the habit as specific sensitization remains
  + Study: Porn addiction wear out your reward system. Linear correlation statistically significant [but not /that/ strong]
* There is massive and overwhelming evidence for behavioral addictions
  + Overconsumption of junk food causes brain changes consistent with drug addiction
  + Gambling also
  + All addictions have the same brain changes in common

More generally I see a lot of people arguing over cause and effect attribution within dynamic systems and I honestly I resolve all the arguments the same way: everything is affecting everything. Society isn't like a production line where one thing is added on to another piecemeal to produce specific effects. That's serial; society is parallel. So how do you conceptualize? You model things diagrammatically or with linear mathematics: then you can start to see the cycles, the feedback loops, and make the assessment where to intervene to break the chains in the most effective way. For most people just knowing a list of the interactions is enough to feel significantly more empowerment relative to such problems.

On 10/01/2017 at 6:57 PM, lightworker said:

The blame is misplaced, and that's just what it is - blame. Instead of looking inward, we place the fault onto something we deem inappropriate. The fact is that there *is* porn out there that is incredibly in alignment. It's just not free

So the interaction you're unaware of here is that porn has the effect of changing the internal as described in my notes. So your argument, while true, has a knock of on implication of supporting mine, namely that porn is important and has an effect. Practically speaking the thing that is important about porn is that we have control over whether we view it. Our level of influence over societal values is tiny compared.

41 minutes ago, Treyoung1990 said:

Thank you very much EarthColours! It's really beneficial to me to hear a male's opinions on this issue. 

No problem my friend!

If someone could explain to me how porn can be an in alignment thing I would really like to hear about that. Teal says that and I have great respect for her opinion but I only honestly don't understand how at the moment. I would very much like it to be true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On January 12, 2017 at 3:21 PM, walt said:

Hi Treyoung. Our culture minimizes abusive and traumatic experiences. We tend to judge an attack based on some nebulous calculation of extreme. 

What you experienced was traumatizing. Until we address the trauma our patterns will repeat themselves. Grieving starts the healing process. You have not been allowed to grieve.  

I think you are right. This post was the beginning of that. Thanks :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On January 12, 2017 at 11:48 AM, EarthColours said:

 

If someone could explain to me how porn can be an in alignment thing I would really like to hear about that. Teal says that and I have great respect for her opinion but I only honestly don't understand how at the moment. I would very much like it to be true.

Hi, EarthColours. There is a website called MakeLoveNotPorn. I was touched by the real life sex between the porn star Lily Labeau and her ex and current boyfriends. The connection I observed in those videos was truly inspiring. I was at awe after watching some of the videos. 

Note: My question about head push was triggered by one of her oral sex videos with her ex boyfriend. The fact that she said "thank you" to him for multiple times  made me sad. Her boyfriend's feelings and thoughts about the experience as expressed in the description box above the video were interesting but still confusing to me. 

Best,

Quinn

Edited by Treyoung1990

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, EarthColours said:

Hi Quinn,

That's interesting. I would like to comment further but these topics are too sexual for me right now as I'm trying not to be stimulated.

No problem! Do what you feel is right! 

Best,

Quinn 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now