What is a zodiac cusp?

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On 12.09.2016 at 7:28 AM, Trichakra said:

What is a zodiac cusp?

How do you find out your moon, sun, mercury, Venus, and mars signs? And what is this zodia cusp thing? What does it all mean?

Hey, this is my favorite subject! Since it is close to home; I myself am a cusp. Born in January 21st; in between Capricorn and Aquarius. 
sign cusps ile ilgili görsel sonucu

I find this answer the most helpful.


This chart shows the dates of cusps, as well as writing the names of them.
Cusps tend to carry the energies of both signs they are cusping. But much like in chemistry, when elements come together to form a compound, they exhibit different qualities; cusps are similar. They have their own personality.

About how to find your moon, mercury and other signs..
You google "free natal chart", and click on a website (usually first one is good). You enter your birth information. Birth time isn't that important unless you want to know your house placements. However, Moon changes sign in 2 or 3 days. This means if Moon was completing its cycle in a sign the day you were born; then you need birth time to know exactly which Moon sign you are. And Moon sign is important.

Share your chart with us! :)

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10 hours ago, Elif said:

About how to find your moon, mercury and other signs..


You google "free natal chart", and click on a website (usually first one is good). You enter your birth information. Birth time isn't that important unless you want to know your house placements. However, Moon changes sign in 2 or 3 days. This means if Moon was completing its cycle in a sign the day you were born; then you need birth time to know exactly which Moon sign you are. And Moon sign is important.

Share your chart with us! :)


Thanks for this. I will try and will share with you guys.

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On 14.09.2016 at 6:56 AM, Trichakra said:


Thanks for this. I will try and will share with you guys.

I wonder how your birth chart looks like :) I'd want to see it.

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Cusps don't exist in real Astrology. Only in uninformed popular media posts. 

If you calculate your chart with your birth date, time and location, you will see you are either; example - sun sign in Virgo at the 29th degree (out of 30 degress for each sign) or the next sign, Libra at 0 degrees.


Sun sign represents your Conscious will. What you do  with your awareness and reason.

Moon sign is your subconscious side, the habits and what your brain has learned to do through repetition- hence it's innate and natural. 

Venus is your Interconnectedness, how you relate to others in a romantic sense, your aesthetics, dress sense, etc.

Mars is your libido, drive, the ''lower energies'' like how you express anger. 


Ascendant is your social mask, how you appear to the world outside, new people you meet and how you approach life in new situations.


How each 'planet' behaves will be determined by the sign it occupies and the House position. As well as aspects - the connections each planet makes to one another. 

And so much more. :)


Try for some info on your personal chart.

Edited by Ghastly

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I could argue there is no such thing as 'real' astrology. It's for the uninformed (Fool power to sarcasm....Which version of astrology, as there are using?) . Use astronomy if you want to measure something real and tangible and yes their is such a thing as a cusp. Its a mathematical construct. When the sun sign is in or close to the boundary between two signs. How far from the boundary is a matter of debate and quite arbitrary. How its interpreted is also another matter. There it is again! Who determines where these boundaries are? Which stars are incorporated into these boundaries? Are these boundaries ever changing? My GOD what if they overlap for a particular constellation?   Actually there are disagreements over that too.

Cheers! Live and LEARN.

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Live and Learn indeed. Hopefully you will soon learn the difference between ''their' and 'there'. :) Astrology has no cusps.  This is a thread about Astrology, not Astronomy. 

Psychology oriented Astrology is deeper and more complex than the crumbs I'm able to provide you. I suggest you read up about it. It's interesting. Take C.G. Jung's research on it, he found a predominance of female Moon sign being in the same sign as a male Sun sign in couples that were married. ( Note the symbolic marriage of Sun & Moon, light & dark, Yin Yang)

Here's a quote from :

''The astrological horoscope, Carl Jung observed in a letter of 1954, “corresponds to a definite moment in the colloquy of the gods, that is to say the psychic archetypes.”1 This statement, one of many similar assertions made throughout his life, is illustrative of Jung’s belief that astrology can provide symbolic insight into the workings of the human psyche. Astrological charts, cast for specific moments in time, might be construed as something like a symbolic portrayal of the universal principles, or archetypes, once personified by the gods and goddesses of ancient myth. Indeed, astrology, Jung remarked in a letter to Sigmund Freud, “seems indispensable for a proper understanding of mythology.”

If Astrology doesn't work at some energetic level, at least we know it's a projection of the collective human subconscious archetypes onto outward stars. And it tells a lot about humans.

Nobody is certain. Especially with the lack of research into Astrology. (Mainly for the fear of this notorious Astrology and how any association with it will ''taint'' the reputation of said insecure person.) However it shouldn't prevent us from exploring it. Take what's best from it and leave the rest aside.

Just a few examples from the top of my head :) 

Moon associated with femininity, is a planet ruled by a Water sign. Take Moon cycles - Strong association with menstrual cycles,  tide levels, etc.

Sun associated with masculinity, is a planet ruled by a Fire sign. Traits of vitality,will. - Exposure to sunlight produces vitamin D, which prevents depression = increases vitality.


I wish you the best, and especially an open mind so you can gain wisdom from the sources you would never have guessed could provide it. 



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How do you think astrologers measure the angles? :) . Aspects: Conjunction, Opposition, Sextile, Square. etc....  Who developed the instruments to make that possible :) .   Like it or not, astrology relies on astronomy.  The accurate measure of position or more specifically, apparent relative position. Hope you can understand that. If you need help,  feel free to ask some question at some point rather than a monologue.  That gets boring quick. Focus on the debate and don't get too distracted by small things as it's more important than semantics or grammar :) .  Do you do your calculations by hand or abacus?  How many different systems of astrology are there now :) I used to believe it was one simple system when I was much much younger. I've come across a multitude of them.  Live and learn indeed. Open minds do not discard other theories out of hand. 

As for mythology. The order I believe in is important. First came the story. How to remember it. Well look up into the night sky and see that group of starts that looks like a......  Where exactly did astrology come in?  Constellations provide and excellent way to reinforce oral accounts before the preponderance of books or clay tablets. 

Have a good evening and keep looking up (exit music).....


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What other theory are you suggesting then?

I respect and agree that astronomy is used as a basis for astrology. Where have I stated that it's not relevant? Seems like you're arguing with yourself there lol. There still are no cusps in Astrology. Sorry dude.

Edited by Ghastly

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Here you go old timer, I got you glasses for you ....

"This is a thread about Astrology, not Astronomy."


Why is the date of birth AND location important? 

Does the sun take time to transit a point at the boundary between signs?

Is it possible to be born at exactly the midpoint? 

If at this midpoint, which sign is your sun sign?

Be aware that the sun is roughly 1/2° in width.  At what point are you not under the influence of either sign?

It's not my theory, but I understand the mechanics of the discussion. There is something called a cusp.  How you or I interpret it is up for debate, but not the fact that it is a legitimate term used for discussion.

Sticking your head in the sand and your fingers in your ears and chanting will not make it go away.  I understand you appear to give birth cusps a weight of 0. That's fine.  Astrology is sometime thought as entertainment. That's fine too.

Each to his own, without the disrespect.

I've always had an interest in mythology, astronomy, astrology and a fairly wide variety of subjects. There are a plethora of theories of how to interpret both the motion and placement of different heavenly bodies including asteroids, comets and supernovae (crab nebula).

Happy interpreting, as that is all it is.

Edited by BeyondTheRim

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Astrology is influenced by Astronomy, it's not exactly Astronomy, or else it wouldn't have a separate field of study OR thread. 

I'm sure you know what I'm talking about in regards to cusps not existing in Astrology . Or you don't know. Seems to me like you are arguing the philosophy behind these 'rules'.

I'd love to see at least one branch of astrology where they accept cusps. (Being Virgo & Leo at the same time.) Until then I'll assume It's pop astrology. You know where you also read about generalized predictions.

As much as I'm aware you can be 29°33′21'' Cancer and still not a Leo.  If we take it by it's rules, there is a point where it crosses into another sign. Never being at both. Majority of people weren't even born on such extreme cusps for it to matter in this case. Some people call themselves on a cusp even at some 25 degrees of a sign. In that case even if you have major doubts about precision of sign positions , it's too far for it to be a cusp .  I simply clarify for the ones that wan't to study Astrology, that such cusps do not exist. and that is widely accepted among Astrologists.

The only ''cusp'' I've heard of is a cusp between HOUSES, not SIGNS. And even then it's the ''line'' that is called cusp. Either in one house or the other. Never both at the same time. lol


''Cusps are the beginnings of the mundane houses.

The cusp of the first house is the ascendant. Of the fourth, the Imum Coeli or the heaven’s bottom; the cusp of the seventh is the descendant, and of the temth, the midheaven.

That is how houses are divided, by defining theirs cusps. Anything before the cusp, less than 5 degrees away from it, and in the same sign as the cusp is considered as part of the house.'' 


It seems to me that you went a full circle in learning about Astrology. OR you haven't really studied it in depth and that would explain why you have these arguments. I think it's enlightening to know about such things for anyone interested in it, and I offer just that. We all started somewhere. I used to think there are cusps too way back when. And for those interested in Humanistic/Psychological Astrology or doing research and anything else serious, I would think it's essential to first learn the rules of the game to then try and test it. This topic is good to discuss with experienced ones. But you saying that there are cusps for people new to traditional Astrology is just plainly misleading.

The best method to refute something and decide if its true or not, is to first learn all the old existing information about it. And then try and refute it by questioning the rules. However new people won't have the chance to do that if  they keep getting confusing and misleading information right from the start, and never get the chance to know the real information about the given subject. To then make up their minds about the validity of it.

Let them learn incrementally, instead of jumping in with random personal theories about ASTROLOGY.  (Not Astronomy, regardless how much it has influenced each other.)


On a personal note, however, it does make me wonder how come there is this rule, and  why (If we assume astrology influences us in an ''energetic'' way.)  it's decided that such drastically different energies would stop influencing us at one certain point and from the next point - new ones would. Why would  29 degrees of Pisces would attribute me certain type of qualities while 0 degrees Aries would strictly attribute way different ones. (Talking about Natal Charts since the OP seem to have asked about personal ''cusps'', not Transits or Composites or many other types where the interpretation could be different.) Degrees change in a matter of hours/days for sun signs. Quicker for moon signs and so on. I wonder that because I still haven't studied in depth about that yet.

That's a better question to ask. Why? Not if it is so. Because it has already been established. If the reason 'why it is so' isn't good enough then we can discuss the validity of it. 

The debate about the width of the orb is also present among Astrologers, so yes you're right about the part that it's based on a lot of interpretation. I still keep learning and I am open to the idea that it COULD be that these luminaries and cosmic bodies do influences us in some way.  Although I do not accept it wholeheartedly without confirmation.

By the way I'm still interested what theory you offer instead of this one? You yourself suggested to me that open minds do not discard other theories out of hand. I don't think you're here with enough knowledge of Astrology and just wish to share your knowledge about Astronomy instead (mainly personal insults and less of that knowledge you talk about so much.). I know sometimes it can be lonely in this world but there's no point in fighting windmills. Let it go. :)

Edited by Ghastly

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Widely accepted? Are we trying to sidestep with consensus? Can you answer the questions I asked? Six? Here's a few additional ones?

Astronomy is used as a tool in astrology, but also has raised a lot of interesting questions that you appear to be having trouble with.

Give me the earliest known accounts of an 'astrologer'?  When were the outer planets, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto recognized in astrology?  Should they really be included in astrology? I'm pretty sure the first accounts of the 'planets' (Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn) as we know them today were referenced as wandering stars; interesting because they behaved differently than the other stars when closely observed. IE. retrograde motion. 

Begin channeling.....

So I can now declare using my own personalized method of 'debate' that there is no Uranus, Pluto or Neptune and such terms don't exist in astrology. For that matter. No longer shall the term planet be used in astrology.  This I decree. Let us further get rid of the three dimensional  nature of the skies above. After all, The earth is flat. No more right ascension and declination. No ecliptic or galactic equator. We are now home in 4000 BC. Oops can't use that either. It's may even be too early for the Gregorian calendar.

End channeling...

Now it the twentieth century again. 

Never heard of cusps. ..... Ever use Google, Dogpile, Duck Duck Go, Startpage, visit a library or a bookstore.  Try them some time even if its just for amusement. There is a definition for cusp. Good to see you recognize house cusps and sign cusps. I have read that some astrologers are a little uneasy about the way sign cusp have been treated like an on off switch which doesn't  seem natural.  I'd agree with them on that.  Just another note:  The way that this stands out almost send a flag up that this is a 'starting point' for  astrology; the first measurement recognized before all else historically speculating.  That may be why it seems so arbitrary and unnatural, because it is.  On the other hand house cusps are differently treated as  a 'transition'. A two pole dimmer switch if you need an analogy.

Let it go! OK you first. LOL.... I'm not the one discarding definitions.  By the way, please fix your grammar and spelling as I know how important that is to you. Yes that was a jab. Refer to:  throwing stones in one's own house.

 For FUN now. Lets throw a monkey wrench into the engines of astrological interpretation (a little cut and paste to save time): 

Precession and astrology

The first day of spring in the Northern Hemisphere was once marked by the zero point of the Zodiac. Astronomers call this the vernal equinox and it occurs as the ecliptic and celestial equator intersect on approximately March 21.

Around 600 B.C., the zero point was in Aries and was called the "first point of Aries." The constellation Aries encompassed the first 30 degrees of the ecliptic; from 30 to 60 degrees was Taurus; from 60 to 90 degrees was Gemini; and so on for all 12 constellations of the Zodiac.

Unbeknownst to the ancient astrologers, Earth continually wobbles around its axis in a 25,800-year cycle. This wobble — called precession — is caused by the gravitational attraction of the moon on Earth's equatorial bulge.

Over the past two-and-a-half millennia, this wobble has caused the intersection point between the celestial equator and the ecliptic to move west along the ecliptic by 36 degrees, or almost exactly one-tenth of the way around, to the border of Pisces and Aquarius. This means that the signs have slipped one-tenth — or almost one whole month — of the way around the sky to the west, relative to the stars beyond.

For instance, those born between March 21 and April 19 consider themselves to be Aries. Today, the sun is no longer within the constellation of Aries during much of that period. From March 11 to April 18, the sun is actually in the constellation of Pisces! 

Your 'real sign'

The table below lists the dates when the sun is actually within the astronomical constellations of the Zodiac, according to modern constellation boundaries and corrected for precession (these dates can vary a day from year to year).

You will most likely find that once precession is taken into account, your Zodiac sign is different. And if you were born between Nov. 29 and Dec. 17, your sign is actually one you never saw in the newspaper: you are an Ophiuchus! The ecliptic passes through the constellation of Ophiuchus after Scorpius.

Check out your "real" zodiac sign, based on the sun's current path, and compare it to the date still used by astrologers (in parentheses):

Capricorn — Jan. 20 to Feb. 16 (Dec. 23 to Jan. 21)
Aquarius — Feb. 16 to March 11 (Jan. 22 to Feb. 20)
Pisces — March 11 to April 18 (Feb. 21 to March 19)
Aries — April 18 to May 13 (March 20 to April 20)
Taurus — May 13 to June 21 (April 21 to May 21)
Gemini — June 21 to July 20 (May 22 to June 22)
Cancer — July 20 to Aug. 10 (June 23 to July 22)
Leo — August 10 to Sept. 16 (July 23 to Aug. 22)
Virgo — Sept. 16 to Oct. 30 (Aug. 23 to Sept. 22)
Libra — Oct. 30 to Nov. 23 (Sept. 23 to Oct. 22)
Scorpio — Nov. 23 to Nov. 29 (Oct. 23 to Nov. 22)

Ophiuchus — Nov. 29 to Dec. 17 (not included in the Zodiac)
Sagittarius — Dec. 17 to Jan. 20 (Nov. 23 to Dec. 22)

The point of the table above is to point out some of the complexities relating the ecliptic to the constellation in the zodiac or rather when it misses them. Astrometrics is not easy. What is this anomoly?

I learned astronomy early on. It was fun. So was my study of mythology while learning how some of the constellations were named and that eventually meandered over into astrology.

By the way. I'm glad real astrology has adapted over time in response to to new discoveries and understandings.  One day long after we are gone. In the distant future, one best guess by science is that the earth will be no more. The sun, sometimes call Sol,  will become a red giant extending out to Mar's orbit.  There would be no Mercury, Venus, Earth or Mars. Titan might be livable (that's a stretch). Imagine how that would change astrology.  Where to even begin?  A little scarier. What if in the future, mankind colonizes Mars and beyond. Born in space. Maybe not even in this solar system. How does astrology compensate, if it even exists any more? Deeper questions.



Edited by BeyondTheRim

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I've heard about the shift of the dates of zodiac signs. Where does Ophiuchus comes from? And why is it included in this? Seems nonsensical to add a completely new sign to a neatly symmetrical system of 12 signs. 

Personally I believe the ''new'' planets aren't necessary at all to Astrology. That would be all planets further from Saturn. Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, now dwarf anyway.

Sun had it's dark coutnerpart -Moon.  

'Light' side of mercury was Gemini and 'dark' was Virgo. (Still the same today.)

Light side of Mars being Aries - Dark side of Mars Scorpio (Now Pluto for Scorpio.) And so on. Except there are no new attributed planets for Mercury and Venus. Seems messy and abandons the idea of duality/opposites.


''Give me the earliest known accounts of an 'astrologer'? '' - Do you argue that only modern Astrologers do not attribute 2 zodiac sun signs to 1 person then? Older ones did? Or is that irrelevant, because we don't know what they did or didn't do, and modern astrologers have no clue anyway in your opinion?

''Does the sun take time to transit a point at the boundary between signs?'' - let's say we zoom in, and do the reductionist method of looking at it, what is YOUR opinion where that line is? Do you suggest there isn't any clear cut line/difference, and that zodiac is a spectrum? (Would make more sense actually.) 

''Is it possible to be born at exactly the midpoint? '' - I never calculated a chart by hand. Used programs like, where it would be impossible to be born on a ''line''. This is the same as the previous question. If we take zodiac as a spectrum that would make more sense instead of a clear cut beginning and end. That would also mean that ''cusp'' situation would be happening, and both signs would influence a person. Still, majority of people aren't born on precise line, and in that rare case where they're on an exact border- millisecond,microsecond, nanosecond- precision; only then I would consider attributing both signs to that person. Otherwise seeing how (anecdotally of course) precise the aspects have to be (orb max 3 degrees for some astrologers to consider a sextile for example.) to feel the effects of said planets, I'm reluctant to think it's true. Knowing how some say that a planet at  the end of the sign is ''weak'' as well. I'm not sure that practically it's really significant to consider cusps as they're not really cusps if you look closer.  But you keep talking about the exact line in charts.

Take this example; Skin, where does the exact boundary begin or end, there isn't one. It's only a certain density of an object, it consists of whatever it's made of. The closer you look at it, the more you understand that it isn't as impenetrable as it seemed from birds-eye view. It's made of different layers, each with own purpose. So wouldn't it be similar with anything in this universe with seeming ''boundaries'' that there is just a transition. And even then it wouldn't make sense to call one layer of skin by another's name. Or both. Zoom in close enough and you're either at one point or the other, or else keep zooming in/reducing infinitely in regards of time and location in the sky. lol

The objective truth ( If it exists in the realm of Astrology) would be closer to neither one of our points, or both. We are arguing about the line where one starts and the other ends. It would make more sense to call it a spectrum with varying degrees of influence, the last degrees of a planet being the weakest and preparing to transition into a new sign. Thus even on a cusp, (depends which sign is closer ) the old sign would bear less influence. Or would exhibit a more ''mature'' influence of that sign, meaning that the lesson was learned and it's ready for the new sign's lessons. Entering new sign, ( other side of a cusp) it's influence is still weak as well. Until it reaches a midpoint of that sign. Would that make sense? Both sign influence weaken at the beginning and end of it's cycles. 

There's even a name for the last degree of a sign. Anaretic/Critical degree. From 29°00'00” to 29°59'59”. It's described quite interestingly, as decisions are made reluctantly (bearing the symbolism of being at the end of the sign) and then spontaneously (symbolic of jumping into new signs' new experiences impatiently. Only just starting to learn and  then mature.).

Anyway, don't want to continue writing endless paragraphs; I recognize your point of view, and I agree in a sense that it doesn't make sense to draw precise line, because in this world nothing has such a strict border.  However, the view of pop Astrology, the entertainment side of it throws all the interesting and necessary details that come with knowing your Natal Chart ,  and which sign you are precisely, out. (In most cases.) And for sure they aren't interested in the details and depth of it as you and I are. I think it's the duty of some people to try and inform, or leave some information for people that might want to get into studying it. No harm in the entertainment. But if I see a mistake I'd rather correct it than let it fester more and more until the subject is muddied in misinformation and then forgotten and discarded because of it. It's for that reason why some subjects are no longer credible or surviving, because of the nature of people to distort, embellish, and the effect of a ''broken telephone'' just destroys the information. 

I'm genuinely interested now, seeing how much you do know about Astrology. What are YOUR views on the whole thing. For a change, answer the questions you posed to me, as I am interested in your point of view. 


Edited by Ghastly

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I've had an interest in both astronomy and astrology since I studied the night skies as a child. Couple that with my reading of the farmers almanac which has lots of interesting customs, beliefs and remedies,  both old and new.  This included a traditional western horoscopes and included some Chinese astrology,  based on the date you were born. Astronomy naturally led to learning the names of stars, planets and constellation. My curiosity didn't stop there; just extended into how those names were given and into mythology. Parallel to this was a curiosity about horoscopes and by extension into astrology.  Astrology is not limited to Eastern and Western, Also led to interest in MesoAmerican culture. Incas and Mayans. Later to Celtic and Egyptian systems of predictions.  Funny how  some of the temples  and other structures were aligned with various special alignments. IE Solstices and Equinoxes.  The multiple observations led to multiple 'threads' of thought too numerous count and  which I consider an ongoing study. Never ending but sometimes on hold. Priorities as this is more a hobby.
A common question arose. How are they calculated as they seem to  be based on the relative positions of the stars and planets, which would involve an empirical extrapolation as you have to consider a number of things.

1. The most important. The original versions began at least 2000 years ago and this has important implications.

2. The method of measuring time has changed and poses a difficulty even for archeologist. We us AC/ BC currently but this is a fairly new one.  Example of these are the Julian Calendar followed by the Gregorian Calendar.  For an interesting read:

*** Interesting factoid: Why January 1 was chosen for the mark of the New Year (western). All I have to say about this. Interesting. Politics as usual. Not an emphasis on something like the equinoxes and solstices.Watch for future changes too.  I've also heard that there might be changes in store at some future date to deal with problems in the modern calendars. ***

3. The fact that the heliocentric model was apparently conceived and adopted much later. Remember the earth was ,at one time, believed to be flat by some.

4. It was not understood exactly what the lights in the night sky were. Even what the sun and moon that we see did not have a modern context. More myth based.

5. I don't believe there was a context for the constellations either. That took on more of a mythological essence. Question; what is the basis for the  Zodiac?   What was the thinking? It does appear to have been amalgamated with more recent constellations mythology.

6. Other perspectives exist. The Mayans believed in cycles that they related to all kinds of decision making. Try this for an interesting read:

Below is a portion from:

..."The highest levels of astronomical knowledge were reached in Mesoamerica around 400 A.D. by the Mayans. They developed a written language based on glyphs or pictures, used a complex and accurate calendar, recorded positions of planets, and predicted eclipses. Mayan astronomy was well organized and state-supported. Rulers used astronomical knowledge to decide when to wage war, perform sacred rituals, marry, or ascend the throne. This was a form of astrology. One inscription records a conference of astronomer-priests at Copan, Honduras (probably on May 12, 485) to discuss the calendar system.
The Mayans passed on much of their astronomical observations and other knowledge to later cultures. Much of the Mayan knowledge was lost, however, after Spanish priests burned most of the Mayan manuscripts in 1562 because they believed them to be sacrilegious. One of three priceless Mayan manuscripts that still survive is a record of solar eclipses, the motions of Venus, and other astronomical data. Some of the major observatories of Mesoamerica have survived to the present day and can be visited.".......

A little more on the Mayans:

The Incas of South America were another civilization that also had a form of astrology that they followed. Read a little about it from the link:

Keep in mind the age of Mesoamerican culture was thought fairly young until more recent archeology now suggests. It may rival that of Egypt at least in terms of age.

I haven't even scratched the surface. There is also an Indian, Chinese and Egyptian Astrology/Astronomy.  The western version I'm familiar with is speculated to have it origin in ancient Babylon.  Another interesting read about the origins of the Zodiac.


I hope you're getting a better feel for why I 'combine' astrology and astronomy.  They are intimately related; Intertwined.

My takeaway from much of this is that part of the foundation is based upon seasons:

and an attempt to predict them with the position of the sun, moon, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Spiced up with odd events like a comet and meteor shower and the rare super novae. Additionally, the brightest stars were apparently adopted as a measuring framework. That's probably where the 30 degree with came from irrespective of the 'constellation'. Isn't it interesting that red Antares is the eye of the bull.

**** One last interesting note. Not quite sure where to introduce this but a couple of interesting lines were shown on early maps of the world; The Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. They represent the greatest latitude where you can observe the sun directly overhead at noon on the  two solstice of each year. (Again precession has changed the original constellation in which the were originally observed.) ****

Now on to problems that may affect how you use your observations.

Precession is one of the major ones , but is accompanied by others.  A good open source program can help you visualize the problems.  Stellarium is a good astronomy program to check out the differences. It's purported to account for precession, plus or minus 10000 years. IE. look at the location of the sun for your birthday as compared to the sky in say 600 BC. My birthday is May 23 and was in the constellation of Taurus for my birth. Take a look at May 23, 600 BC, 1:08 PM. The Sun passes the boundary of Gemini and Taurus. You would have go back further  to find the point that it passes the right ascension of Pollux to find a rough year when the Zodiac coincided with the constellations.  Keep in mind precession is a wobble in the Earth's rotation that takes 10 of thousands of year to complete one cycle. The imaginary axis of rotation without the wobble should not effect the general direction which should still point to Gemini.
Other problems are pointed out in the following article:

Alternate Link:

A big question. Does the position of the planets relative to the earth really influence us?

My answer is I don't know. I could foresee how bands of energy  intricately connected could be influential.  If its really tied to the seasons, think how the time of year (season) may have affected a child born at different times of the year and how this may cascade into their development into adults. So I could see archetypes of the sun sign coinciding with the time of year of one's birth. The worlds a different place though and  I'm on the fence as to its usefulness. But consider that in times of indecision, it may function effectively as a tie breaker shaker. Gets one unstuck, for better or worse. That's not a bad thing.

Finally back to the question of cusps; zodiac cusps.

Yes, there is such a metric in terms of position. But to what affect?

Let us not get too distracted by some of which feels like it coming from the ideas of reincarnation and karma; as it is one belief of many. So the idea that one is finishing the learning of an archetype in this life may not hold for some. It could be a one shot; here is the role you play in the great machine deal.  Another problem is simply that of why just the preceding sign and succeeding signs have that type of  influence?  Shouldn't all twelve signs play a role and just how would you measure that. Gets too complicated. So I do ultimately believe that the sign is an arbitrary binary point for simplicity's sake. Most people probably don't realize that the night sky won't reflect the zodiac and cause more confusion unless you have a basic background in astronomy, mathematics and history.

Hope you find some of the information enlightening and entertaining as this a great way to exchange ideas.


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If the map/blueprint is shifted due to movement of planets or our calendars, then the supposed energies are working in different ways, they're not gone anywhere. Still alive due to the belief that we're affected by these energies. At this point we don't know. So we may as well take Astrology as completely useless. And we may also reject any significance of shifted signs as well then. It didn't work then, it doesn't work now, since we're not affected anyway.

When both types of astrology have coincided, that was the time when it was probably the most useful. Nowadays, we either have to adapt and create a new model or keep using the old one but for what purpose if we don't know if it works. At this point it's powered by belief only and no facts that it works, and it's just a passing down of information for whatever purpose. There are many things we still don't know that could prove or disprove the validity of Astrology. I'm prepared to wait and see, however, because it does seem to be onto something. I accept that it might never be fully understood and explained in a scientific way. 
 We don't know if we are affected energetically by the planets. So, as long as we don't know if it is, how, and how it works if it is affected (It's based on the whole premise that is is.), we can find all kinds of details to take issue with, but the most important one is still unknown. When we find out, it might answer all the little questions the skeptics pose. For now it's most useful to understand myths, and how people form patterns.
It's a fact that Astrology is myth based (As in, described used mythical creatures for certain psychological characteristics, a way to categorize). 

So my idea would be this: Humans observe patterns by associating things one with another and finding similarities thusly categorizing their experience and knowledge of the world. In harmony with the nature around them. Chaos in details, Order from the birds-eye  view. That way making sense of their existence, passing down wisdom of their knowledge and experience, providing shortcuts for younger generations (''Predicting'' things they will encounter, evolving .) Observing certain existing principles (Like Hermetic laws.) which appear in patterns. They must have found by observing the movements of the planets, that it correlates with certain things happening on earth. Otherwise it would not have been devised. It's interesting how nowadays people are afraid of stereotyping other people, things. It's just patterns. They don't appear out of nowhere. Statistics. It helps to make sense, and to discriminate for the purpose of making life easier, making quicker, educated decisions, wasting less time, because, statistically you will be right more often than not. Efficiency. There's always room for chaos, individual exceptions. But people were more inclined to stereotype because it aided their evolution/survival. Now, how these patterns originated, and WHAT exactly caused some planets to be associated with events/characteristics, is unknown yet. Might be simple correlation, with no common causation, or it could be directly linked.

We're only aware of the Sun's and Moon's influence on the earth the most, in terms of significant practical influence of seasons, weather, resources, etc. . Just as you've noted, the child is affected by environment/seasons prenatally and postnatally. Still, we're not aware how we're affected in terms of ''invisible energy''. Seasonal influences still correlate a lot with mythical zodiac sign descriptions.
We don't know if there are any real and provable correspondences of literal planets with their appointed Gods and Goddesses. 

We don't know (even if unaffected by planets) if there are any real, provable behavioral patterns in humans who share exact same Natal Charts. (Even among twins, Astrologers argue that one twin adopts one side of a chart, while another one acts according to the other. Say,Natal Sun opposition Neptune; one will take on the Sun side of the aspect and it's placement in a House while the other takes on Neptune's.) 
We don't know why there is a rule of 30 degrees for each sign. Where exactly the line is separating the signs; is it harsh and determined or is it relative/spectrum-like?

Have you got a source of the statement that Astrology started at least 2000 years ago?. A lot of the times scientists finds that the current known dates of things originating change.

Chinese astrological signs would coincide with Jupiter's yearly cycle through 12 signs.  Approximately 12 signs in 12 years. Giving each year a certain sign. Again, this was probably the case way back when. Now the signs are shifted. If you were born during a year of the Pig, your western equivalent sign should be Scorpio, but nowadays Jupiter will be in Sagittarius instead of Scorpio.

A more fitting date would seem to be at the start of the first zodiac sign. Which is Aries, spring-time, when everything ''begins/is born''. But as you said, it's political. Or perhaps it's some kind of significance placed on Saturn - primordial sun?. Like so many ''secret'' societies and religions do.

The retrograde issue: Of course seen from another perspective, a planet is not travelling backwards, however, relative to earth, its ''lagging behind'' the earth due to other planets having a longer orbit. Thus, again, if we take the energetic aspect of it, the energies could be interpreted as ''retarded'', not in harmony, when they usually are. However, talking in terms of energetic influence on earth by these planets is certainly not my field of study or expertise. And I doubt there is sufficient information about it at this point in time.

There's no doubt that in the olden days, not that long ago our elders would keep a lunar calendar for purposes of Harvest and such. They would take into consideration Moon cycles and much more. It worked for them more often than not. There is basic, simplified collective truth in myths, archetypes. It's the way people have carried knowledge externally or internally though associations, experience, genetic memory, so on. Collective unconscious.

It seems the names of the planets were given thousands of years ago, right? Without knowing the properties of each planet, with no proper scientific knowledge of it, as we have now. And still it coincides perfectly. As I'm sure you know, but let me give an example with one planet(this discussion is a good brainstorm.) Saturn, sixth planet from the sun. Rules things authoritative, discipline, time, etc.  Rings during weddings seem to represent binding and an act of dedication of oneself to another, along with one's material assets. A nice coincidence there, or might there be some conscious or unconscious symbolism behind the ceremony?. Saturday, sixth day of the week. Cube representing Saturn(6 points of hexagon, could be drawn as a cube), 6 sides, 8 points of time and space. Saturn being a god of time.(Hexagon in the middle of Merkabah symbol/David's star. Six pointed star in Judaism and their black Saturnian cube worship, going circles around it. Sabbath on Saturday. 3 dimensional Merkabah has  8 points. 8 is a number of Saturn in numerology.) Images of North Pole of Saturn, and again, finding the hexagon there. (And so many more patterns/things associated with this planet.) So I am not sure if we replaced Saturn with any other planet, if there would be no difference (According to people that argue that Astrology is ONLY a projection of inner human experience on to heavenly bodies.). I think there might be certain patterns in this universe, which coincide with life down here. Regardless if we are conscious or not, we might fall into living out certain patterns which are ''pre-programmed''. Creating and expressing them unconsciously. Patterned nature, everything's in harmony more or less (Humans have the ability to break out of these patterns by will/consciousness, but even that is arguable in philosophy lol.) Again, this could be a confirmation bias on my side. Who knows. 

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