AbsoluteWave

Argument Games & Always Searching To Debunk

8 posts in this topic

From my experiences being surrounded by such people.. I just ask when will all of this stop?  May be a losing battle for them but they are always looking to debunk and pull people back into the web and of course hoping they buy into their happy pill plan for " instant" success when they themselves don't want to share with you what actually makes you successful so they feed you what will hold you off and even rear you into settling with how things are so you don't bite the hand of the " owner" let's say.

( I had planned on saying more but I think you guys already know what usually comes next with all this BS.. Lol )




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                                      Sharing time!



In the case of one of my older brothers..  He was super biased and patriotic.  Loved masculinity to an almost extreme extent.  And yet he was so into history and always battled and questioned the things my mother had been following for many years.  and what a religion to get ensnared in for many years.   The ending of the JW society from all angles has gotten me very happy.. makes me imagine that along with the other good things happening back home.. I could actually have a regular family and the mother I knew was there but was trained how to behave.. which is why I both LOVE and somewhat hate my family.  And what I have noticed is that the subtlest of pains can be enough to drive you insane.. even to simply not be accepted as gay by your family and so on.. So under the mask of a fairly well balanced home with no divorced parents and all that.. To see what might look like a loveless relationship or perhaps in this case, they don't openly show their affection.  They've been together for years and all but I'd LOVE for them to demonstrate it in front of me.. x.x'' 

I've also longed for that concept of a " second mother" figure.  not to replace her but.. you know.. my life seems to be just full of things that don't prepare me at all for life and how to demonstrate love and so on... All I have been taught was to basically keep everything inside and agree to disagree and above all, walk away from a situation you don't like..  BUT at the same time I sensed alot of LOVE in that household.. at least toward me in many instances which is why confuses me so much.. That why does it stop.. why do I see so many faces that don't seem to be the people I know deep down exist and are dying to just be a loving parent who wants to interact with their child.. My dad was the soul being who had that air of acceptance and his humor was so sound and so on.  Showing me how to make things as ( the ideal dad does, y'know?  lol ) took me out alot.. didn't always question me and so on.. looked out for me and when the times call for it, defend me in all aspects of the word.  It's strange.. I can't always tell a clear story since my life is full of polarity and reminders to certain things..  Perhaps I could make a topic about sharing all the positive things about my family and what makes them so unique to anybody who hears about or even meets said person.

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The best antidote to an argument is deliberately seeing things from the other person's perspective, and then explaining to them the true parts of where they are coming from. Even if you don't fully agree with them, showing someone that you see their good intentions (at first this can be hard to find -- but even the most angry of arguments usually stems way back from an original good intention), showing someone this will usually shut down the heated argument. People like to be seen and heard for the goodness in them. 

I understand what it's like to come from a really good / overall good family, but still have some things you wish were different. I have been lucky to be able to maintain a good relationship with my parents and siblings over the years. I was not always understood as a child (I have a very loud, active personality and was born to two parents who are both pretty mellow, low-key, calm), but fortunately as an adult I am able to be myself and lead my life the way I want to while also maintaining a healthy relationship with my parents, seeing them and enjoying conversation with them on a regular basis. I am grateful. :)

 

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I agree with Katie. Everybody cares about whatever they care about for some reason. They stand up for what they believe in, and this is good. If they remembered this in the heat of their argumentative passion, they would see that you feel you have an important cause to refute them (and might listen). Instead, they see your passion as a threat to their preciously held belief. So, you have to remind them.

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18 hours ago, Akurabis said:

I agree with Katie. Everybody cares about whatever they care about for some reason. They stand up for what they believe in, and this is good. If they remembered this in the heat of their argumentative passion, they would see that you feel you have an important cause to refute them (and might listen). Instead, they see your passion as a threat to their preciously held belief. So, you have to remind them.

Thank you so much for this!  I value everything all of you have to say!  But I'd like to put it out there that some people we have to accept wont change and most certainly cannot be changed by ME.  Those people who actually would refute my words about such things.

This person is hardcore on the whole arguing, debunking and making jokes like all the time.  >__>''    He and I do get along though to be honest.. which is why I am so confused.  Whenever I DO get him into an understanding mode.  he automatically resigns to the " that's life" thing and holy crap.. he's got his head sooo far up his !!!!! that it's not even funny..   C__C;;

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I read an interesting article about Tribal Shaming. by  a Dr. Martinez

The premise was we all belong to a certain 'tribes'. These tribes can be our family, our religion, our neighborhood, our nationality, our culture, etc.. Each tribe has there own set of 'rules' that they follow. These rules constitute the honor code that defines every tribe’s essence. No matter what the tribe, these rules are always sacred. Every family is tribe, and therefore every family has its own moral and cultural code — its own guidelines that signal: THIS IS HOW WE DO THINGS AROUND HERE. Thus, the people who raised you injected you with certain rules, habits, morals, and standards. The rules of your tribe might have been lofty (such as: “In this family we are religious fundamentalists”) or the rules might have been lowly (such as: “in this family we are all alcoholics”) or the rules might have been insanely contradictory (such as: “IN THIS FAMILY, WE ARE RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISTS AND WE ARE ABUSIVE ALCOHOLICS”) 

Whatever the situation, though, the rules were definitely the rules, and they were made quite clear to you from the beginning. 

In order to remain safe and accepted within the boundaries of the tribe, you must follow these rules.

Maybe as you grew up, those rules continued to make sense to you. If so, then you got lucky. Because then your life’s course is clear — all you need to do is obey your familiar tribal rules (and pass those rules down to your offspring) and everything will be safe and clean and simple. 

Or maybe not.

Maybe in your tribe you were taught to be suspicious and hateful of strangers —but you wanted to love the world with a more open heart. 

Maybe in your tribe, it’s considered deeply wrong to be gay — but you happen to be gay.

In other words, maybe the rules of your tribe didn’t work for you anymore. Maybe you decided to break your tribal rules, and choose your own path. Maybe you went out and found a new tribe, composed of people who felt more like family to you than your own family did.

Maybe your tribe celebrated your differences and cheered you on, and said “All we want is for you to be happy!”

If so, God bless them.

Because that is rare.

Chances are, they probably were NOT totally OK with that. 

Because it’s exceedingly rare for a tribe of origin to celebrate the departure of one of its members. They REALLY don’t like it when you break the rules. Remember — those tribal rules are SACRED. Even when the rules are totally dysfunctional and dark and insane, those rules are still sacred. Adherence to those rules determines cohesion, and cohesion determines survival — so nothing less than life itself is at stake here! 

Or, at least that’s how the tribe sees it.

So….if you dare to leave your tribe of origin — or if you dare to question the rules of your tribe — it is extremely likely that you will be punished.

Sometimes that punishment can be violent and extreme —like: excommunication, shunning, disowning, physical abuse, or even murder (such as in the dreadful cases of “honor killings” of young girls by their own family members.) 

But oftentime the punishment is more subtle. If you dare to leave the tribe, or if you dare challenge the tribe, the weapon that they are most likely to use against you is SHAME.

SHAME is the most powerful and degrading tool that a tribe has at its disposal. Shame is the nuclear option. Shame is how they keep you in line. Shame is how they let you know that you have abandoned the collective. Violence may be fast and brutal, but shame is slow…but still brutal. Shame is like a computer chip that the tribe implants into you, in order to be able control you and make you suffer — so that even when you are geographically far away from the tribe, they can still flip that switch and make you feel the agony of guilt over having betrayed them.

The tribe will shame you by saying things like, “Now that you’re a big fancy city girl, you think you’re better than us, don’t you?”

Or: 

“Now that you’ve got a college education, you think you’re better than us…”

“Now that you don’t drink anymore, you think you’re better than us…”

“Now that you’ve lost all that weight, you think you’re better than us…”

They will accuse you of being a traitor. They will use words like “abandonment” and “betrayal” and “disloyalty.” They will sometimes say these words as a joke, but you know damn well that they aren’t joking. They will remind you that you weren’t there where Dad died, that you weren’t there when your nephew was born, that you can never be counted on for anything. They will mock you, and then brush it off, saying, “Hey, don’t get so upset — we’re just joking. It’s all in fun.”

But it isn’t all in fun.

It’s dead serious, and it’s potentially deadly, because shame makes people sick.

Shame can literally take years off your life. 

At best, it just makes you terribly, lingeringly sad.

Your tribe of origin is letting you know in no uncertain terms: “YOU ARE NO LONGER ONE OF US.”

Those words (spoken or unspoken) are the ultimate tools of tribal shame. Because nothing is more painful to a human than the accusation that you are a traitor. It is terrible to be told YOU ARE NO LONGER ONE OF US. (Remember, we are pack animals; we need the approval of our pack.) It is terrible to be accused of abandonment and betrayal.

In short — if you dare to leave the tribe, the tribe will shame the living hell out of you, and that shame will hurt you. Shame is a fierce and burning energy. The power of tribal shame is not to be underestimated. Tribal shame is capable of ruining lives, and killing people. Shame corrodes the soul. It also corrodes the mind, and the physical body. Tribal shame will make you sick. It will send you into a spiral of psychic misery and physical infection. 

Tribal shaming also sometimes causes people to sabotage their own lives — to abandon their own callings, and to jettison their own true paths, and to forbid themselves to be happy.

If you look you can see tribal shaming EVERYWHERE. See people inflicting tribal shame on each other all the time, and see people sabotaging their own lives and their own happiness in order to not betray the tribe. 

So I guess what I am saying AbsoluteWave is this could be what is behind how someone close to you may be treating you. 

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@CherieJThank you so much for all of that!  And weirdly enough, my nephew is 5 years older than me..  Lol.  Is this really that common to have an uncle that's younger than you are?  I always had this concept of nephews and uncles being a certain age?  xD

I really miss human interaction so much.. Specially with strong minded and kind people like yourself.  I always feel my inner self creeping back out of it's adamant shell every single time I am in contact with encouraging, thought provoking people.  Sometimes I get intimidated though, specially from their sheer knowledge and experiences under their belts!  You can see that they've been weathered all nicely~  Somehow focusing on what is souly special about me.. it doesn't always go well since there is only so much I can list but it's not really useful in a physical sense!  Perhaps I just need a " rude" awakening as it were.. somebody with great psychic talent to just crack me open.  Lol..  Or well.. Back open?  xD

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3 hours ago, AbsoluteWave said:

Sometimes I get intimidated though, specially from their sheer knowledge and experiences under their belts!  You can see that they've been weathered all nicely~  Somehow focusing on what is souly special about me.. it doesn't always go well since there is only so much I can list but it's not really useful in a physical sense!  Perhaps I just need a " rude" awakening as it were.. somebody with great psychic talent to just crack me open.

Don't worry even I get intimidated by those with what seems like more knowledge and understanding than me. However that is just ego making us feel bad and I believe that feeling bad is a choice we make it serves a purpose for us. So the road of discovery is figuring out the 'why' of the bad feeling. We all have a plethora of wonderful life experience and knowledge , no matter your age, gender and situation every person lives a life 100% different from every other person. I think it is so exciting to see younger people with so much life left ahead of them! The possibilities of what you can accomplish in your life spiritually are so exciting!

I have been on the 'fringes' of my psychic and spiritual development, in that I have always believed and 'dabbled' in it, however it is only in the last few years I have been truly dedicating myself to growing spiritually.

So although you may feel as though you do no know as much as you would like it's okay! Imagine all that you will know in 5, 10 and 20 years from now, the possibilities of how much you can develop are so exciting! 

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